Monday, January 09, 2006

stand up and step up

Recent talk among the women at the seminary has begun to really concern me. I feel myself being dragged down into discontentment, even piping in with my own observations at times, as I listen to them (students, wives of students, faculty, wives of faculty, and staff) all saying the same thing: single men at the seminary are odd. They have stereotyped the male population into two groups: married and weird.

I was asked by a recent visitor during a conference this weekend if I was dating any of my fellow students … before I could answer her question, a seminarian’s wife spoke up.

“Of course she’s not! The boys here are ridiculous!”

The women have further split the category of “weird” into two sub-categories: over-zealous and lethargic. According to the ladies, it is rare to find someone within the gray area.

I’m sick of it. I’m sick of it being a topic of conversation that constantly arises when two or more women are gathered. I could always change the topic by commenting on the weather … but it will just come up some other time. Although my motives may seem odd and selfish by merely desiring to rid myself of the annoyance of conversations concerning the oddities of seminary single men, I hereby am attempting to rectify the situation by ... speaking to the men … for, obviously the women aren’t.

You may read this if you like or completely ignore it. However, I WILL NOT tolerate this topic to become one of controversy, because that is not the purpose! I will say my peace and that will be that. If you disagree with me … fine, my feelings aren't hurt. If what I have written has caused you to understand better WHAT WOMEN WANT, bravo!

what women want:

1. Women want to be noticed.

Before diving into the icy waters of the unknown (will she say “yes” if I ask her out?), there is a ritual dance that has been practiced before Solomon wrote his love song. This dance involves the man making his interest known in a relatively riskless manner by dancing these steps:

a. let her see you noticing her across the room
b. be clean and smell good
c. get to know her
d. show her you are attracted to her (“you look great today!”)
e. smile at her
f. be where she is (stalkers need not apply)
g. give her compliments
h. say something funny
i. stand tall

The lady then responds to these steps, if she accepts your offer to dance, by

a. standing a little straighter
b. looking you in the eye, then looking away, then looking back
c. making it a point to talk to you
d. moving like you (I surprisingly have found myself doing this … when I’m comfortable with someone I’ll tend to unconsciously mimic his/her stance or hand placement)
e. complimenting you (something a woman rarely gives lightly)

(If the girl does not respond with these steps, you are dealing with someone who is either not interested or shy)

Here are some example compliments a woman might enjoy hearing. (Notice that they involve compliments of who the woman is.)

1. You are so smart.
2. I love how creative you are.
3. You look amazing in that dress.
4. You are so much fun to be around.
5. I love talking to you.

Realizing that men are generally sight-sensitive by nature, make the extra effort to come up with compliments that are not limited to her appearance. Otherwise you appear shallow and un-appreciative of her true nature, her intelligence, wit, skill, humor, talent, etc.


2. Women want to be asked.

a. Ask her out in person.
b. Don’t ask a group of people and her to an event. That’s not a date. She’ll feel like she’s only one of the group.
c. Ask her out to a specific event.

i. DON’T ASK: What are you doing this weekend? Do you have plans on Thursday? I’m going to a concert tomorrow night if you want to go too.
ii. DO ASK: Would you like to go out to dinner Saturday night at 7? … or … I heard there was festival downtown this weekend, would you like to go with me Saturday afternoon?

d. If she says no, don’t ask why. It’s none of your business.
e. Never ask more than twice. (Unless she has let you know that she would welcome other opportunities to go out with you but she was buys the other times you asked.)
f. Do not ask her through a friend.
g. Ask her out for one date at a time. Don’t try and book her entire month or lifetime after the first date.
h. Be direct … none of this beating around the bush business … “I was wondering if maybe you weren’t too busy that you might be interested in perhaps sometime in the future, near or whenever, in doing something with me.” … um, No.


3. Women want a man with a plan.

Nothing’s worse than the guy who asks, “So … what do you want to do?”

“I don’t know. What do you want to do?”

A man with a plan goes from being just another guy to … “wow, what a great guy!”

A general rule of thumb is to ask her no less than 3 days before the event. For instance if the event is Friday night, the invitation should be extended no later than Wednesday. This shows consideration for her valuable time … remember she has a life, and it doesn’t revolve around you. It also gives you the time to do a smash-bang job of planning a specatacular evening.

Even the most independent women long for a man who is in control. So often in life she may feel she is carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders, and if you expect her to plan all of your dates … you’ve just added another load to her burden. How much she would give for a guy who took the time to look in the local paper or community events calendar online to find out that there was a Shakespeare-in-the-Park performance that weekend and made plans for a picnic while watching the show! That gives her the luxury of having time to daydream about you and the fun of selecting the perfect outfit for the event.

Pre-planning is huge! If you are intending to take the girl of your dreams to a movie on it’s opening night, purchase the tickets in advance. Make reservations. Make sure there’s enough gas in your car. Make sure you know exactly where you’re going. Have enough cash for the tip. Etc.

Also … be flexible. The woman understands that circumstances are unpredictable. Have a Plan B. But in any case … don’t let it frazzle you. If anything, switch it around into a good thing … don’t let unexpected events ruin your night. You’re above that.

A man with a plan makes a woman feel relaxed and appreciated.


4. Women want to be with gentlemen.

It should be a habit with you to perform gentlemanly acts of chivalry to not only your date, but all women. Remember, she’s watching you.

The effects of feminism have caused men to hesitate at performing these acts. I myself am guilty of discouraging them. A few years ago I visited my alma mater for my friends’ graduation. All of them were in the auditorium rehearsing, so I decided to go to the library. As I neared the building, I could see in my peripheral vision a guy walking towards the library from a different direction. I mentally calculated his distance, angle, and rate and was bothered when I realized that he would arrive at the library door just as I would. Ugh! There would commence that horrible, awkward moment of who’s going to open the door for whom. I didn’t feel like dealing with it that day, so I increased my pace thereby allowing plenty of time for me to get my own door. To my shock I noticed that he had also increased HIS speed (all this still being observed in the peripheral). Well, I wouldn’t have it. I sped up to a brisk walk. SO DID HE! Well, this was just ridiculous! He could have his silly door! I slowed to a meander and SO HAD HE!!! By this time, both of us were quite close to each other and I was prepared to give him a piece of my mind! I whipped around to confront …

GASP! Ethan!!!

Ha! I could have thrown my arms around him. (Many of you know why I didn’t.) We stood outside the library talking for hours, fully forgetting why either of us had been going to the library in the first place. (FYI – we weren’t dating. We had been actors in a couple of on-campus performances together. It was just nice to see an old friend.)

I still struggle with the whole door issue; but don’t let women like myself deter you from performing considerate acts of chivalry. Don’t make the woman wait for you to open the door!

If you catch sight of a woman carrying a heavy load, whether it looks like she has things under control or not, offer her your assistance. I, myself, struggle with asking anyone for help … but delight in those who offer their help.

Be cool, kind, and listen … listen.


5. Women want the pursuit to continue.

a. The man in the relationship ought to call more than the woman.
b. The man defines the relationship. Don't you dare make her bring up the DTR!
c. The man gives more. This doesn't have to empty out your savings account. Be creative. Give more of your time, etc. You are leading in the relationship. She follows your steps.

Stand up and step up to the plate and be a MAN.

(Much of the above post is under the inspiration of the chapter "Stand Up and Be a Man" of the book Marriable: Taking the Desperate Out of Dating, by Michael and Hayley DiMarco.)

39 comments:

ckhnat said...

This was for the benefit of my seminary sistren. I hope this is a step in relieving your frustrations.

I will note that I am friends with two super guys who are neither weird or married (although one will be soon).

G. F. McDowell said...

I must commend you for offering constructive advice. It was an upbeat, non-discontented post. It also leaves me exceedingly curious about just what 'weird' behaviors your (excellent!) advice is meant to forestall in the single males of SBTS. What is wrong with the single men at Southern? Clearly something is if all the women are talking about it! I don't want you to answer, though, if doing so would risk you falling into discontent. If you'd rather not discuss it publicly in this forum, you can send me an email. gmonay at gmail dot com

Bobby said...

Wow. Many points to ponder. Good post!

But I must say to "Don't make her bring up the DTR":

This may draw some fire, but ... is a DTR really necessary? I guess many times it is, and often it's a guy's fault because he sends mixed signals. However, since we live in a world where men and women are often together (whether at work, school, or wherever), and since humans are social creatures, therefore meaning that male/ female friendships will form, the standard rule should be, as you say, that if a guy is interested in a girl beyond friendship, he will make that known. If he doesn't make that known, the girl should know what the relationship is, or what he's offering: friendship.
Now, if you don't want that, you can always say so. But, in a "perfect" situation where guys are being stand-up guys and not pretending to be friends when they really want to date a girl, then the girl should simply rest in the fact that if a guy is romantically interested, he'll say so. If he doesn't, and yet you're friends, then that's exactly what you've got -- a friendship. There is no need for a DTR.
In fact, if you initiate a DTR, he's going to feel blindsided. He probably will be at a loss for words. He'll feel like, "Why are we having this conversation? Why is this necessary?"
You will have taken away his role as a man -- to initiate that kind of conversation. No matter which way it ends up going -- you start dating or you don't -- he's going to feel a little less of a man when he's around you because you took his job. And if the nature of his feelings change down the road, he'll be less likely to say so because you've already set up the rules and boundaries.
And I'm sure many girls will think, "Well, yes. That's the problem. Guys are making US do it."
I would just ask, "Are they really?" Or are you just jumping the gun? Do you really WANT to be the one who controls and defines the relationship? Because, again, it should be assumed, when a guy is friendly, that he wants to be friends. That IS the relationship until he initiates a DTR, not by saying, "I think we need to figure out what's happening here," or "I think we need to talk about whether we're friends or lovers," or "whether we're dating or hanging out," but by saying, "I'm interested in you and I'd like to date you."
Again, I realize the issue is cloudy precisely because a lot of guys won't do that even when they ARE interested in a girl -- that it creates confusion in a girl's mind because some guys really will simply be "friends" with a girl, because they're too shy to make the move. But remember, ideally, with a guy that you know to be a stand-up guy who DOES take initiative, you shouldn't think, "He likes me as a friend, but I think we need to have a DTR so no one get's hurt." You need to assume that his friendship is what it is. If he wants more, he'll say so. Don't make things worse by taking it upon yourself to have the DTR.

ckhnat said...

thank you so much, Bobby, for clarifying what i couldn't have expressed better myself.

Tmproff said...

Christine,
I really agree with what you said. The men that step up and dont hide their intentions in the beginning usually get that coveted "yes". Here are some of the things I've noticed about women:

1. Women dont just want to be persued. They want to be persued by the RIGHT man at the RIGHT time. It isn't enough to be the right man, timing can be just as important.

2. Be relaxed and have fun. I think women have a 6th sence that detects fear. Women aren't attracted to guys that aren't confident in themselves.

3. Women like men that have goals. Women like even more for a man to PUT THE WOMEN ON THE SAME LEVEL (not higher or lower) in their persuit of that quest.

4. Talk, communicate....smoke signals, hand sign....pheremones

5. I dont understand this last one but, (especially Christian women) are very uncomfortable dating guys that they've been friends with. Guys must ask the girl out before they start climbing the "friendship ladder"

ckhnat said...

that last one was a little "iffy", tmproff. it's subject to interpretation. some women are dying to enter a dating relationship with their guy friend (she probably entered it hoping more would come of it). but, you're right some women view their guy friend as their brothter ... who already knows so much about them.

Some Author said...

Christine,

Tmproff hit that last one out of the park. Great ladder analogy.

If you consider friendship as a ladder and the dating ritual as a ladder, you've got a clearer piture that they're two distinctly different climbs. Sure the buildings are closely related, they're right across the alley from each other. But ever seen someone try and climb two leaning ladders at once? The higher you go, the more your pants rip.

Of course, you can always jump off the "friendship ladder" to start climbing the "dating ladder", but you when you're done dating (and not married) you do have to start much of the friendship ladder all over again. Most often, one or both say "it's just not worth it".

You're right that alot of Christian women enter into friendships with Christian men "hoping more would come out of it." But those women become enablers perpetuating the problem you seem to be fighting, that men don't chase because women don't allow them to chase.

For more on the friends issue, take a look at the chapter, "Why 'Just Friends' is a Waste of Time" in your new favorite(?) book "Marriable".

I'm bookmarking your blog for future reading to support your crusade. And thanks for the plug. (My assistant was compiling reviews and web references to the book and forwarded me your blog link.)

Say 'Hi' to all my "weird" friends at SBTS. I've felt their pain. :)

Michael DiMarco

ckhnat said...

way to go, Michael. thanks for stepping all over my toes and then giving it the ol' stomp-twist! ha ha ... nah, there's a reason i didn't write a review of your "Just Friends" chapter.

it's a bit too personal.

i read that chapter just at a time when God wanted me to. i'm beginning to re-evaluate my motives in my relationships. so, once i have a grasp on the concept ... look for it, because i'll definitely be writing about the "friendlationships" issue. but till then i'm still in a befuddled state of mind ... my sanity is at stake.

i'm honored to have your support. i look forward to any more insights you or Hayley may have in the future.

here's a question: how does one go from being a friend to being just friendly?

Bobby said...

What do you mean by "how does one go from being a friend to being just friendly?" Why would you want to?
It seems weird because I always want my relationships to get better, or at least stay the same. Of course in life, people sometimes grow apart, but that's never my desire.
Do you mean a case where you feel you have to cool down a friendship because the guy wants more, you don't, and you have found that he is unable to deal with that?

ckhnat said...

yes ... for instance.

Tmproff said...

I think a lot of the problem with the "friendship ladder" / "Relationship ladder" is the risk involved. Both parties usually spend a lot of time in the same community. If the relationship doesnt work out, how will it effect the mutual group of friends?

I remember once, I was involved in a Bible Group where there was an unwritten law that all of the girls in the group adhered to saying "We wont date anyone in the Bible Study".

Just for the record, guys usually dont have any problems dating friends.

From what I've noticed, what women say they want in a guy is true, but only AFTER the relationship is established.

Some Author said...

Christine,

I know, Hayley and I tend to do that (toe-smashing) mainly because there are enough "waiting on God to write my love story" books out there.

To give the "Just friends" conversation with Christine some context (isn't context 'king' in exegesis?!), how's this for a freebie? Click this link- http://www.marriable.com/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,29/

then everyone that doesn't have a copy of Marriable can read "Why 'Just Friends' Is a Waste of Time" for free. Just click the little arrow underneath the praying mantis to flip the pages (If the link doesn't work, go to marriable.com and click on "Sample Chapter" at the top.)

Tmproff- we've heard (and lived through) some of those same church/bible study 'rules'. They existing for two reasons, because of the fear of rejection and a sense that attraction within your church family is incestuous.

I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation for a bit because I'm finishing the manuscript to "The Art of Rejection" (it was due Friday :S) that's coming out this summer along with "The Art of the First Date." Heady stuff, we know. Consider it respite from reading the works of Philo in Greek. A broader book on risk is coming out in the Fall.

Maybe Hayley and I should try and schedule a book reading/Q&A session in Louisville for our new accidental feminists and weird friends around the darkest of holidays...Feb. 14th anyone? :)

ckhnat said...

Is there a reason why February the Fourteenth carries the same forboding tone as Friday the Thirteenth?

I know of a lot of girls that would probably make an appearance if such an event was to be scheduled. Guys, if you just don't know how to meet girls ... well, there will be some there at the reading/Q&A.

Bring it.

gumby171 said...

Could you please define a context for these rules?

I ask this mostly because I once asked a girl out directly, alone, for dinner, whom I'd never before spoken too. I got one of those "I might have plans call me later this week" responses. She then proposed that I join her & her friendS for bowling. Initially I was a little deterred by the group inclusion, but later I appreciated the wisdom in the descion, and admired her thinking through the situation;

I mean, do you really want to be alone with some guy you don't really know?

At seminary, you can probably get away with making that safe assumption. But once you're off-campus...

Overall, despite experience to the contrary, I'm left very encouraged by your post. Thank you for your thoughts.

ckhnat said...

you didn't dance the dance.

you've been to the zoo and seen the peacocks ... right? the peacock will spread his feathers and strut about in front of the hen in hopes of getting her attention and admiration. She then moves away, then stops to see if he will come after her, and then hems-and-haws.

Does this sound like flirting? call it what you will ... there needs to be a period, however, in which she can assess you ... are you worth her time and effort. Being forthright with a girl you have never spoken to scares her a bit ... she doesn't even know you. You appear "over-zealous."

Before asking a girl out, dance the dance, if she steps in time with you ... the risk of regection is minimized. Otherwize you've just plunged into an empty swimming pool, and that hurts ... might even deter you from trying again.

But be aware of the signs ... don't draw out the dance, or she'll soon get tired and accept some bloke's invitation to go to the refreshment table for some punch.

Donna said...

Candy grams were a huge fund raising project at my undergrad (little bags of candy with a personal note attached that can be ordered by students and the organization would deliver them to the college post office).

Anyway, there were candy grams for almost every possible holiday: Christmas-grams, Turkey-grams, Easter-grams, Halloween-grams... the best one was put on by an organization on Valentine's day. They had a huge sign above their booth that said, "Order your Singles' Awareness Day Grams today!" I thought it was perty funny, and since I have always called V-Day S.A.D. ... but since I just got engaged I guess I mus pass that tradition to someone else. Any takers?

PS: Christine, I enjoy reading your posts - it echoes much personal wrestlings that seem all too common for us single women who are seeking to honor the Lord in all our relationships. And speaking from someone in the transition between singleness and marriage, it's very good to wrestle now and seek counsel now. I had and do have much to learn, but being willing to hold every thought, relationship, and motive up to the light of Scripture is the best practice before, during, with, or without marriage.

Keep wrestling and keep posting - and yay for no obnoxious anonymous posters!

Bobby said...

I think one goes from being friends to "just friendly" by just coming out and saying, for instance, "I think we should distance ourselves from each other."
If he wants to know why, it's your choice whether you go into it. Personally, I would. I don't like to offend people or leave them hanging. I'd say, in this case, "Because you don't seem to be able to handle the fact that I don't want more than friendship with you."
Now, what does that mean? In other words, when should a girl say something like that?
Interestingly enough, I just heard from an old friend today who was asked out by a guy she dated 10 years ago. They broke up but have been friends ever since, although he periodically "checks" to see if she's changed her mind. She doesn't know what to do because she doesn't like to keep hurting him, but she enjoys his friendship.

I told her it's not really her problem. I know that sounds blunt -- we should all care for each other and not WANT to hurt anyone. But if a man says, "I can handle it," then you should take him at his word. If he cries himself to sleep, that's his deal.

Now, I'm sure it can be wearying to have to turn a guy down once every year or so. If his friendship isn't worth that occasional inconvenience, then it's your right to end it. Otherwise, really, the girl has it easy in that instance. All you have to do is say no.

Now, I think an instance where a guy would prove to be unable to handle it, and therefore unworthy of the friendship, would be if he is disrespectful to her when she is dating someone else, or disrespectful to her date. In that instance, you should sever the friendship.
If he really cares for you then he will want you to be happy and fulfilled, even if it's painful to him. That's part of what true friendship, true love, is all about. Therefore, a true guy friend will deal with the pain on his own and support your relationship.

ckhnat said...

yay for a woman commentor!

i just hope you haven't jinxed us though. perhaps anon. got engaged this past Christmas Eve and has found that love has melted away any bitterness felt towards the blog world ... plus, he wouldn't have the time!

Elissa said...

Amen and Amen! That was right on target. That is what I am looking for...are there any guys out there who actually do that anymore, though??

Anonymous said...

Seminary men are married or weird? I've always heard that seminary women were weird. If fact, I hear that they are like parking places: the good ones are taken and the rest are handicapped.
I have found this to be true for the most part. Furthermore, I have found that many seminary women are ice queens. They often seem to interpret a mere "Hey, how are you doing?" as "I really like you and won't to go out with you." They get freaked out and run for cover.u Nonetheless, I have enjoyed reading this blog post.

ckhnat said...

ha ha ... what did i say, Donna!

Anonymous, I like to think of myself as "reserved" parking.

; )

Gumby171 said...

You can always find a greatparking spot if you don't mind hunting around a bit, and being patient. I should know - my apartment makes me park on the street.

And yes, there are guys that believe all this wonderful Theories, but their experiences (thus far) have led them to conflicting evidence

ckhnat said...

what was the conflicting evidence?

if it was that she didn't jump at the opportunity to "go out" with the guy, that doesn't mean it's a flawed system. it means it's working. she's not attracted to him. so, he moves on (at least he tried) and awaits a golden opportunity to get to know another woman of God.

Bobby said...

"The good ones are taken and the rest are handicapped." Haha. That was actually funny. But I'm sure it cuts both ways. Girls probably think the same thing when they look at the guys in their lives (or guys who could be in their lives).

But of course it's not true that every good one is taken. And remember to always look at yourself first. Me? I must admit that the main reason I've been treated poorly by girls is that I've had poor taste in girls.

Gumby171 said...

Perhaps the vast majority of "conflicting evidence" is a result of what both you and bobby have just implied; poor taste in women.

Failing with some girls, not because of the approach, but due to thier interest. And having sucess with others, not BECAUSE these same principles have been abandoned, but simply because she thinks he cute.

I think the conflict comes when the gentleman sees "sucess" as getting *A* lady to say yes, rather than obtaining the favor of a *GOOD* lady. If that's the standard, then he'll never 'win' by breaking the rules.

Anonymous said...

I should also be pointed out that not everyone knows the dance described here. Some move to a different dance. Moves can, thus, be misunderstood. I am looking for a godly woman, not just a good Christian girl.

Anonymous (same as above)

ckhnat said...

naturally.

the dance steps listed are not stenciled to the ground. it's merely a list of observed moves that men and women make. it is by no means extensive.

anyone can notice someone across the dance room ... but it is the dance that allows a peak at who the person actually is ... a glimpse at her character ... a taste of her "godliness".

once the two of you have assessed each other through the "dance" (boy, i'm tired of that analogy!) you move on as a "noble man of intention" and pursue her.

... just be sure your hands aren't sweaty ... someone mentioned that women have an internal detection device for nervous fear ... be cool. be yourself. have fun.

ckhnat said...

many men make the mistake of watching as she dances with other men or as she's talking with her girl friends across the room at the refreshments table.

determined that he has seen enough to convince him that she's "the one" he moves immediately into pursuit.

okay ... THAT is scary.

DON'T do that!

you haven't even given her the chance to decide the same about you. how could she? she was busy talking to her girlfriends!

smile at her when you pass in the hallway. make a witty comment to her if you find yourself standing behind her in a line. and don't be so concerned about your foot positioning that you miss her smiling back (or not smiling).

Lorie said...

I love how we put all this pressure on guys and then charge them to "Relax! Be yourself! Make it fun!" :) And you, men, should do all of those things. But, remember this---you were CREATED to do this! Sure, our sinful pride and nature causes us to fear fulfilling and living out the very purposes for which we were created, but the truth is that men were made to be pursuers. It's how you're wired. It's not like you have to summon some magical powers (like a shield of protection, perhaps?) to fulfill this duty or become something you're not.

And, in the name of women, I do think we have usurped your "power" to pursue and lead. That's part of our curse in The Fall. I, for one, have been very apt to do this in my relationships with guys, under the guise that "I'd rather know than wonder."

Part of my own tendency to do so relates to this comment: But, in a "perfect" situation where guys are being stand-up guys and not pretending to be friends when they really want to date a girl, then the girl should simply rest in the fact that if a guy is romantically interested, he'll say so. If he doesn't, and yet you're friends, then that's exactly what you've got -- a friendship. There is no need for a DTR.

Being that this is NOT a perfect world and NO situation is a perfect one, it very rarely occurs that a girl meets a guy who lavishes attention on her and invests in building a strong friendship without some underlying motive---conscious or subconscious. Who has not had the OPPOSITE experience? Which is why I think DTRs are particularly apt and necessary in Christian male-female friendships. There is no other way to know for certain that you are both on the same page.

Bobby said...

There is no way to know a lot of stuff in this life -- we ain't God.

But you choose to trust people. You just do. Someone who treats me as my friend is my friend. If women don't want to be a part of the whole larger trend of usurping the "power" to pursue and lead, then they should trust that friendship offered is friendship intended. If, deep down, the guy wants more but is too nervous, or if he's thinking that he'll just store up "brownie points" as a friend or something first, then that is unfortunate. But you should go with what you know rather than "taking charge."

If the appearance of things ("just friends") is an intolerable condition (for instance, if you want more) then of course you have the option of telling him that it's too hard for you to be friends, that you're feelings get mixed up. But if it's just a case of "I have to know," or "I have to get this relationship defined," then I would say that you're going too far.

What if your suspicions are right? Well, if you're interested then you've pretty much just asked him out and taken the lead in the relationship.

What if you're wrong? Then you could end up with hard feelings on both sides.

But I do think sometimes we can get too much into "the rules." There is a certain amount of subjectivity, and there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Lorie said...

Ah, but we can't form an MO based on exceptions, now can we? There can (and, I believe, should) be general guidelines that will make it easier to navigate the very treacherous and muddy waters that are opposite-sex friendships.

Bobby said...

Right. And I'm saying one rule ought to be that the guy leads. If the girl doesn't like where he's leading, she rejects.

I said there are exceptions for the sake of not sounding like I'm haughty, or I know better than other people do as regards relationships that they have worked out among themselves.

ckhnat said...

I'm totally with you on the DTR issue, Bobby. You have no clue how many people have told me that it's not a problem, even encourage the girl to get it out in the open. "Hey, at least in the end you'll know, right?"

Do I really want to be with a guy that I have to "bring it up" with? What sort of precedent does that set for the future of our relationship?

no thanks. I'm okay with "just friends" ...

for now.

Bobby said...

'Atta girl.

rainy sunday said...

I thought this was a good read:

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001196.cfm

mike said...

Jeepers lots of comments... I love you and I pray that I'm able to be the bloke that you desire. I love you

Michael S said...

Great! That's human relationships in five minutes...now let's fix peace in the middle east shall we?

There just might be some complicating factors to your ideal dating processes...

ckhnat said...

I'd rather laugh than cry: sit down and shut up

this one's for the chicks

jnibby said...

Nice! I think you made some excellent points.