tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post114771581877985477..comments2023-07-07T22:29:25.782+10:00Comments on the early days of ... I'd rather laugh than cry: in responseckjollyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147840327229945002006-05-17T14:32:00.000+10:002006-05-17T14:32:00.000+10:00No if anything she's showing me how book-smart she...<I>No if anything she's showing me how book-smart she is but how very little wisdom she's learned from her travels of the world.</I><BR/><BR/>Funny, because she's answering Anon's questions very well despite not having this "wisdom learned from her travels of the world."The Borghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17986276019307882740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147832053323386492006-05-17T12:14:00.000+10:002006-05-17T12:14:00.000+10:00Anita - looks like blogger won't let you post the ...Anita - looks like blogger won't let you post the 'N' word (as in, those German guys with the funny logo).RodeoClownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14132852669233755447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147831636513321932006-05-17T12:07:00.000+10:002006-05-17T12:07:00.000+10:00"Would anything shatter your faith? Not the scenes..."Would anything shatter your faith? Not the scenes of the Holocaust, the Serbian Camps, the starving Children in Sudan and Ethipioa? Are these the work of the Devil? Then why were they done in the name of your Christ?"<BR/>____________<BR/>Dear Anonymous--<BR/>Let me kindly remind you that Jesus was a Jew, the son on the human side of his heritage of an extensive line of Jews: his disciples, all except Paul, were Jews: the first of his believers were Jews.<BR/><BR/>On no account does the Bible, or any kind of true Christianity, justify mistreatment of Jews. The actions of the s were a combination of evolutionary thought--assuming that the Nordic races are better evolved than Jews, therefor have a better right to live--and a twisted interpretation of the frenzied, whipped up demands of a Jewish mob to let the of Christ be on them and their children. Jesus never condoned that. Many followers of Jesus fought that by hiding Jews from the s at risk of their own lives.<BR/><BR/>And since when were the horrors of Sudan His fault, either?<BR/>-AnitaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147797483159030622006-05-17T02:38:00.000+10:002006-05-17T02:38:00.000+10:00"This "chick" is wiping the table with your candy-...<I>"This "chick" is wiping the table with your candy-arses. Go ahead and slap one another on the back, because she just ended you."</I><BR/><BR/>No if anything she's showing me how book-smart she is but how very little wisdom she's learned from her travels of the world. <BR/><BR/>And come to think of it Wrestler-dude you've shown more insults than knowledge when it comes to other religions, generally speaking. You've asked me to start showing proof, which I've done so now it's your turn to put your cards on the table.Machinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12876721513411184190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147784640062356082006-05-16T23:04:00.000+10:002006-05-16T23:04:00.000+10:00There is also a mention of Jesus in Tacitus and Su...There is also a mention of Jesus in Tacitus and SuetoniusCraig Schwarzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11156017639962303656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147783677147860952006-05-16T22:47:00.000+10:002006-05-16T22:47:00.000+10:00No, it's not true.Josephus, a historian at the tim...No, it's not true.<BR/><BR/>Josephus, a historian at the time of Christ, wrote about him: "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works..." (p379) There's a bit more in <I>Josephus: The Complete Works</I>.<BR/><BR/>It's a tough call to say that there were no Roman Records. There may be none existing today about Jesus, but that doesn't mean that there were none made at the time - no doubt many were lost. <BR/><BR/>I'd like to see some evidence for Anon's claim though. :)The Borghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17986276019307882740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147782268441262932006-05-16T22:24:00.000+10:002006-05-16T22:24:00.000+10:00"so why do we ONLY have the "bible" as proof he ex..."so why do we ONLY have the "bible" as proof he existed? There are NO roman records showing he existed even"<BR/><BR/>To the people who know way more about Christianity than me - is that true? I'd be really interested in seeing that addressed :)Emihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08917031271800919380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147759133687186212006-05-16T15:58:00.000+10:002006-05-16T15:58:00.000+10:00Jesus died the criminal he was. Roman Law required...<I>Jesus died the criminal he was. Roman Law required it to be done. He was a Criminal. He jeopardized his people and his community. Some Messiah. so why do we ONLY have the "bible" as proof he existed?</I><BR/><BR/>This is a really interesting set of statements - if we grant (for the sake of the argument) that the Bible is the only evidence of Jesus' existence, then you could only know that Jesus was a criminal <I>from what the Bible says</I>. <BR/><BR/>This raises a bunch of questions. i) Where in the Bible do you get the idea that Jesus was a criminal?<BR/><BR/>ii) Why did the guys who made up the whole story about Jesus include that? Why didn't they edit it out along with all the other inconvenient bits, like Jesus being married to Mary Magdalene?<BR/><BR/>iii) What do you think about what Jesus said concerning himself?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147752503442104622006-05-16T14:08:00.000+10:002006-05-16T14:08:00.000+10:00I have enjoyed reading, and I wanted to take a sho...I have enjoyed reading, and I wanted to take a shot at answering Anonymous' comment about Jesus being a criminal under the law. This article, http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/implicationsJesusTrial_2.htm,<BR/>gives an excellent argument that the trial of Jesus was illegal on many counts. To sum up:<BR/>1)There were no formal charges at his arrest<BR/>2)He was brought first before Annas, who was not the true high priest<BR/>3)Caiaphas, who later judged his case, was known to be seeking his death<BR/>4)His trial took place in the middle of the night, in violation of Jewish law<BR/>5)The Sanhedrin, meant to be impartial judges, had already manipulated the arrest process<BR/>6)The charges during the trial were changed several times<BR/>7)The witnesses did not survive cross-examination<BR/><BR/>The article goes on, but these seem to suggest that even under Jewish law, Christ was innocent and tried incorrectly. <BR/>Peace to youQuick Change Artisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12731683038463645155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147750845873609142006-05-16T13:40:00.000+10:002006-05-16T13:40:00.000+10:00ha ha ... no, i didn't mean that by spirit-filled....ha ha ... no, i didn't mean that by spirit-filled. I was implying it as more of an attitude.<BR/><BR/>If you all promise to be good, I'll take comment-moderation off till the morning, so you can discuss freely (and politely) amongst yourselves.<BR/><BR/>please, don't abuse this privelege.ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147750580181007972006-05-16T13:36:00.000+10:002006-05-16T13:36:00.000+10:00Jesus died the criminal he was. Roman Law required...Jesus died the criminal he was. Roman Law required it to be done. He was a Criminal. He jeopardized his people and his community. Some Messiah. so why do we ONLY have the "bible" as proof he existed? There are NO roman records showing he existed even. There are some that mention the Jewish Rebels and the like. <BR/><BR/>I love the idea of "spirit filled". So your'e saying we can only post if we take your view point. I understand the idea of being polite...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147750211663375492006-05-16T13:30:00.000+10:002006-05-16T13:30:00.000+10:00Well, I just got back from watching the movie Amis...Well, I just got back from watching the movie Amistad. How come no one ever told me about this film masterpiece? Although, I was quite disappointed in Anthony Hopkins portrayal of John Quincy Adams. Adams was the furthest thing there was from a Deist. He's what some have called "The Last Puritan."<BR/><BR/>Ha ... not that any of that interested any of you.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous, I'm posting the comments that were left during my absence. Remember, I invited other to join the conversation. While I largely agree with what most of them have said, I may not have argued the points in the same manner they did. <BR/><BR/>I do have one request for everyone. Be congenial and polite. Refrain from any personal attacks. And discuss the subject openly. I will not post any future comments if I think they may be in spite, whether you're a Christian or a non-Christian. If it is, I may request that you rethink your wording so that it is more edifying and spirit-filled so as to be helpful to all who read.<BR/><BR/>I look forward to posting my own thoughts in the morning. <BR/><BR/>Good night, all.ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147748723795252262006-05-16T13:05:00.000+10:002006-05-16T13:05:00.000+10:00Even though I'm not a guy, I have a few things to ...Even though I'm not a guy, I have a few things to ask.<BR/><BR/>"Take words like Virgin, which was a greek term used to describe a woman who didn't give birth within in the first year or so of marriage."<BR/><BR/> Firstly, where are your references?<BR/><BR/>My sources are generally that virgin could mean either a women who ahs never had sex or an unmarried woman or maiden. In fact, it's in any dictionary you look in. If you show me your sources I could check for myself if your claim has any weight.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"What of the fact ancient Hebrew had no set Vowels, and could easily be miseinterpreted? "<BR/><BR/>Thats a new one! Then I suppose you're willing to discount anything written in ancient hebrew then? Not just the bible?<BR/><BR/>What about in modern french, where meaning of particular words can only be known by reading in context... That's 'difficult' to understand. Maybe we could discount that too??<BR/><BR/>Generally translators are experts in a language anonymous, if we wanted we could go and explore all we could to learn about how people translate hebrew, rather than assuming that because of 'difficulties' it gives you another reason to discount the bible?The Librarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00200331339095421330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147748524549176452006-05-16T13:02:00.000+10:002006-05-16T13:02:00.000+10:00"Let's discuss something else, like Miracles. if I...<EM>"Let's discuss something else, like Miracles. if I'm to understand the various creation stories and the like, didn't God (or whatever the great ghost is called), say he'd stay out of the affairs of humans. So then who's behind these "Miracles"? Can't be God, or God would have gone back on his promise. "</EM><BR/><BR/>Sorry, Anonymous, you have profoundly misunderstood the Christian creation narrative if you believe that. Genesis chapter 1 contains the creation account. Genesis 2 and 3 immediately following is the story showing God talking with Adam and Eve. Hardly a God who butts out of human affairs! Can't even wait 1 chapter before sticking his big nose in again.<BR/><BR/>In fact, nowhere in the Bible does God promise to stay of of Human affairs, in fact he promises to be intimately involved with them. Even in the affairs of those who don't believe in Him.<BR/><BR/><EM>"Now you CAN quote all the scripture like some convert, but are you able to debate and discuss the Nature of God as a Rabbi would? Could we discuss some Medieval Rabbi and Jewish Intellects? "</EM><BR/><BR/>To what point? You have demonstrated a blissful ignorance of Christian beliefs, so why should we expect you do have deeper knowledge of any other spiritual traditions? Of course Christians quote scripture "like a convert" - that's what we are! If you want to engage with Christians you have to engage with the bible, it's as simple as that. However it seems you have neither the inclination nor the patience to do so, and you are more interested in building straw man arguments and tearing them down instead. Rest assured your demolition of beliefs attributed to Christians but to which we don't <EM>actually hold</EM> will have no impact on us.<BR/><BR/>Christian apologetics is a serious study, and can withstand the attacks of people with great knowledge and insight. People who take the time to understand the bible and who make reasoned and reasonable criticisms of it. Those debates are interesting. Having a slanging match with someone who shifts focus every time a point is rebutted, who refuses to accept that the bible will be quoted as a source of doctrine and who hold simplistic understandings of what Christians believe is much less fun. You may impress each other in the athiestic echo-chamber, but in the end your opinions are meaningless.<BR/><BR/>Here's a tip. The entire edifice of Christianity is built on a single plank: that a Jew named Jesus lived a perfect life here in Planet Earth, was executed by the Romans on a Cross in Jerusalem and rose from the dead 3 days later. Read the book of Mark in the bible and come back with some informed criticisms of the man, the history or the conclusions Christians draw from those events. That's how you demolish Cristianity, and I'd be interested to see how you go at it. You may not believe it - that's your choice, but it doesn't alter the history. <BR/><BR/>Personally I don't believe in the Moon, yet I'm told it's still there.<BR/><BR/>The Bible itself gives you all the ammunition you need to wipe Christianity off the face of the earth: 1 Corinthians 15:17 <EM>"if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."</EM><BR/><BR/>Go your hardest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147743467534171652006-05-16T11:37:00.000+10:002006-05-16T11:37:00.000+10:00What of the fact ancient Hebrew had no set Vowels,...<I>What of the fact ancient Hebrew had no set Vowels, and could easily be miseinterpreted?</I><BR/><BR/>Pick me! Pick me!<BR/><BR/>No, the lack of vowels aren't a problem. You see, the Hebrew text we have was preserved and transmitted by ultra-conservatives how were really careful not to change anything. So when vowel signs were eventually added, you put them in so you pronounced the words <I>exactly</I> the way your Rabbis had taught you, which was exactly the way <I>their</I> Rabbis had taught them, etc.<BR/><BR/>So fundamentalism can be a really good thing. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147743322361289332006-05-16T11:35:00.000+10:002006-05-16T11:35:00.000+10:00I'd like to see what will happen to Christianity a...I'd like to see what will happen to Christianity as more and more women take more of a Shepherd roll vs. that of Sheep. do you see any significant changes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147742884435398822006-05-16T11:28:00.000+10:002006-05-16T11:28:00.000+10:00Okay, time to go Van Tilian on some folks here. A...Okay, time to go Van Tilian on some folks here. Anonymous, I think you are inadvertantly correct when you say, "<I>I most certainly will admit to argue, let alone have intellectual discussions, with the faithful is next to impossible. It's more akin to arguing with the grass, the rock, or well... my cat.</I>" The fact is, what stands in the way of an effective discussion is a differing set of presuppositions. When you cast doubt on the veracity of scripture, supposing that an all-powerful God can be thwarted when it comes to His revelation to the people created in His image, you have already decided that God does not exist. No amount of clever argumentation on my part can conceivably change that presuppostion you hold. But you should at least recognize the inherent circularity of your argument, <I>An almighty, loving God does not exist, therefore an almighty loving God cannot exist.</I> The fact is, the Gospel is foolishness to those who are dying. The Bible tells me so. Your doubt does not lead me to doubt. The only way you will come to agree with me will be if the Holy Spirit illumens your heart, and the Holy Spirit acts primarily through the revealed Word of God. You seem to have an aversion to scripture. Could it be because you find it challenging and convicting? Is it because it causes you to see that all of us are sinners? Is it because it tells us we all are deserving of Hell? Hell isn't just a place for Hitler, you know. What say you?G. F. McDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00590653254820595774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147742664969839212006-05-16T11:24:00.000+10:002006-05-16T11:24:00.000+10:00Yes, let's talk about miracles. I've always been i...Yes, let's talk about miracles. I've always been interested in miracles.<BR/><BR/><I>if I'm to understand the various creation stories and the like, didn't God ... say he'd stay out of the affairs of humans. </I><BR/><BR/>Well, this is the first of heard about it. Did you have a particular source in mind?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147742439853140922006-05-16T11:20:00.000+10:002006-05-16T11:20:00.000+10:00The "message" of your God, Messiah, and whatever o...<I>The "message" of your God, Messiah, and whatever other polytheistic being thrown into your Trinity, does it really translate from the ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, into Greek and Latin, then poorly retold and retooled by several European Monarchs? Do the words really mean the same. Take words like Virgin, which was a greek term used to describe a woman who didn't give birth within in the first year or so of marriage. What of the fact ancient Hebrew had no set Vowels, and could easily be miseinterpreted? </I><BR/><BR/>The short answer is "yes". We are aware of all those things, we have people who spend their whole lives studying these issues. <BR/><BR/>Our scriptures are *very* accurate - we have massive amounts of manuscript evidence. And our translations are also *very* accurate - more effort has gone into translating the bible than any other book in the world.<BR/><BR/>And don't bring up the old chestnut about virgin in hebrew. The fact is that the translators of the septuagint (who lived much closer to the original than we do) translated it as virgin. Case closed.<BR/><BR/>And guess what? NO european monarch has "retold" or "retooled" our scriptures. None!! Provide me with a schred of evidence...Craig Schwarzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11156017639962303656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147740988920402972006-05-16T10:56:00.000+10:002006-05-16T10:56:00.000+10:00While I am away, gentlemen, please feel free to ex...While I am away, gentlemen, please feel free to express your convictions concerning the Way, the Truth, and the Life.<BR/><BR/>After all, I am a woman ...ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147740929222397202006-05-16T10:55:00.000+10:002006-05-16T10:55:00.000+10:00I am pleased to help correct any misconceptions yo...I am pleased to help correct any misconceptions you may have held, anonymous, concerning true Scriptural Christianity. <BR/><BR/>Each time you post, I am more and more astonished by the ideas you present that you believe I hold. <BR/><BR/>I have some thoughts I'd like to address about your most recent questions, bust sadly, I must be off. When I return, I will answer your questions.ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147739176860926312006-05-16T10:26:00.000+10:002006-05-16T10:26:00.000+10:00I most certainly will admit to argue, let alone ha...I most certainly will admit to argue, let alone have intellectual discussions, with the faithful is next to impossible. It's more akin to arguing with the grass, the rock, or well... my cat. Though I have actually won out with the cat. <BR/><BR/>But, I must ask this. The "message" of your God, Messiah, and whatever other polytheistic being thrown into your Trinity, does it really translate from the ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, into Greek and Latin, then poorly retold and retooled by several European Monarchs? Do the words really mean the same. Take words like Virgin, which was a greek term used to describe a woman who didn't give birth within in the first year or so of marriage. What of the fact ancient Hebrew had no set Vowels, and could easily be miseinterpreted? <BR/><BR/>Let's discuss something else, like Miracles. if I'm to understand the various creation stories and the like, didn't God (or whatever the great ghost is called), say he'd stay out of the affairs of humans. So then who's behind these "Miracles"? Can't be God, or God would have gone back on his promise. <BR/><BR/>Now you CAN quote all the scripture like some convert, but are you able to debate and discuss the Nature of God as a Rabbi would? Could we discuss some Medieval Rabbi and Jewish Intellects? <BR/><BR/>The Onion was around in many incarnations, The Bible being the most recognized. <BR/><BR/>Would anything shatter your faith? Not the scenes of the Holocaust, the Serbian Death Camps, the starving Children in Sudan and Ethipioa? Are these the work of the Devil? Then why were they done in the name of your Christ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147739111545961122006-05-16T10:25:00.000+10:002006-05-16T10:25:00.000+10:00What happened to the chick-blog I thought I knew??...What happened to the chick-blog I thought I knew??? This is some excellent conversation, Christine! More!!G. F. McDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00590653254820595774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147736408954876102006-05-16T09:40:00.000+10:002006-05-16T09:40:00.000+10:00This "chick" is wiping the table with your candy-a...This "chick" is wiping the table with your candy-arses. Go ahead and slap one another on the back, because she just ended you.World Champ Stephen Nealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03233004760190207435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11674728.post-1147724615759798072006-05-16T06:23:00.000+10:002006-05-16T06:23:00.000+10:00Consider it part of my education ...Consider it part of my education ...ckjollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06263260525667337446noreply@blogger.com